[22:49:40] NASSP Logging has been started by thewonderidiot [22:52:40] rcflyinghokie, could it be possible that the FF for the heater caution light should be set and not reset at CWEA power-up? [22:53:29] Hmm good question [22:53:33] the activation checklist seems to indicate that the HEATER caution light is on when powering up CWEA, and that you cycle the temp-mon to clear it [22:54:11] Well it should just get set again [22:54:18] Unless everything is up to temp [22:54:32] Is the RR OPR HTR in at that point? [22:55:15] not at CWEA 1st power up [22:55:34] just the RR stby heater cb [22:56:10] then you do the activation power-up cb config right after, and then yes it gets pushed in [22:56:30] and then after that the check says pull CWEA out and back in, cycle temp mon [22:58:25] Hmm [22:58:47] It could be possible then [22:59:21] Because nothing should be actively turning on the heater light (only the RR and SBD can) [22:59:50] I wonder if the initial power on doesnt reset anything [22:59:56] But a power cycle does [23:00:31] Would that mess with anything in the activation flow? [23:01:08] hmm hard to tell [23:01:09] Also that brings up another question, do the FF's get set if CWEA power is off [23:02:28] Or can they be set without CWEA power on [23:03:19] and I think Niklas fixed the quad tbs to do show gray when without power, but we also have to have the valves themselves initialised open [23:03:46] Because the only way the heater light could be on at activation right now is if sbd or rr is out of tolerance, which is unlikely [23:04:11] right [23:04:26] However, if 1)CWEA only resets FF's when cycled and not just turned on and 2)FF's can get set without CWEA power, then that would let the HEATER lt come on [23:04:52] But there is of course another case [23:05:06] Were the quads or LR connected to the CW on Apollo 12 [23:05:28] On LM 8 they are cut and capped, meaning on at least one previous iteration, they were connected, and the logic remains [23:07:03] Ah I think I know [23:07:09] I think the current implementation is correct [23:07:18] However the LR was probably connected to the CWEA [23:07:45] Leaving it in landing if the landing rdr temp is out of tolerance holds the FF in reset and clears the light [23:08:16] I wonder if thats the answer [23:10:24] But..the LR heater is on during TLC [23:16:51] Now I am thinking its the power thing [23:17:12] That they can be set while the CWEA is off, but are only reset if power is applied and then removed [23:17:30] Now when going from off to on if that makes sense [23:17:39] yeah [23:17:54] I will investigate further when I am home [23:17:59] sure [23:18:07] But good catch [23:18:15] halfway through powering up Aquarius [23:19:03] nice to have everything happening as per the checklist [23:19:10] Good to hear [23:20:05] So on 14, the HEATER caution does not come on with activation [23:20:27] yeah [23:20:31] I still think it is the LR [23:20:38] Call it a gut feeling [23:20:47] and ours is based on 14 [23:20:52] Yep [23:21:05] And all of those temperature readings were once connected to CWEA [23:21:11] so the LR does not talk to CWEA [23:21:16] on LM-8 [23:21:23] makes sense [23:21:25] Nope nor do the quads [23:21:33] Only SBD and RR [23:21:43] so then its good as it is [23:21:59] I think so but I need to check anyways [23:22:13] I would think the LR temp would be up by CWEA activation [23:22:20] Since the heater is on during TLC [23:23:47] Maybe the LR heater didnt heat it as much [23:24:01] Because it actually gets hotter during operation than with the heater on [23:24:31] brb [23:43:09] back [23:49:31] No luck on the hunting for the heater light [23:49:42] But my money is still on the LR being the reason [00:01:40] things are looking good for the Block I schematics to go in for scanning this friday [00:01:45] we're ironing out the last details [00:02:07] Very nice [00:04:59] I am trying to find a clue on Apollo 10 and 11 regarding that heater light but nothing yet [00:12:42] for 13 I guess all use 90h for that AGS K-factor [00:13:14] or time bias rather [00:14:36] Yeah that is reasonable I think [00:14:48] Just use 14's [00:15:29] 14 was 100 [00:16:39] Interesting LM 1 had the LDR RDR caution light [00:39:57] So in reading the changes to Apollo 14, the ASC PRESS light was fixed for 14, explaining the 12 checklist [00:40:08] And it says the quad heaters were disconnected from the CW [00:40:26] So maybe it was quad temps [00:40:51] In the ascent propulsion system, the inputs from the feedline interface pressure sensors to the caution and warning system were disabled. Because of the low pressure at these sensors prior to system pressurization, their inputs to the caution and warning system would have masked the low-pressure warning signal from the helium tanks at critical points in the mission. [00:40:51] Because of erratic indications given by the ascent propulsion system fuel low-level indicator during preflight checkout, the indicator was dis abled to prevent master alarms. [00:40:52] The four reaction control system cluster temperature measurement inputs to the caution and warning system were inhibited to prevent nuisance alarms since it was determined that these measurements were no longer needed. [00:40:53] An incorrect indication of the ascent stage gaseous oxygen tank 1 pressure input to the caution and warning system was experienced during preflight checkout. Therefore, the input to the caution and warning system was disabled to prevent meaningless alarms. [00:41:40] So maybe it was the quads [00:42:11] Cycling would clear the light but wouldnt they just be back on again if the temps were low? [00:42:25] I need to find changes from LM 6 to LM 7 [00:44:07] surely somebody somewhere must have a stack of systems handbooks [00:45:04] let's see what NARA has [00:45:25] LM Systems Handbook, LM-10 and Subsequent [00:45:33] LM Systems Handbook, LM-5 through LM-9 [00:45:43] LM Systems Handbook, LM-2 [00:47:19] there's a "LM Console Handbook" for LM-3 [00:47:45] The LM 5 thru 9 is missing so much [00:48:04] the one at NARA? [00:48:31] I assume thats the same as the one on the VAGC doc library? [00:48:53] ah, no [00:49:02] those scans came from Paul Fjeld from some other source [00:49:13] That could be very useful [00:49:15] this is almost certainly a different copy [00:49:39] There is a lot on LM 5 thru 9 we interpolate based on the LM-8 handbook [00:50:06] But small changes like the cwea logic changes can explain why we have checklist deviation [00:50:12] Like that HEATER light [00:50:15] we just need somebody to go there and scan it [00:50:21] or find a millionaire to pay for it all lol [00:50:40] Is it in college park? [00:51:06] uh, where's college park? [00:51:09] Maryland [00:51:17] Thats where NARA hq is at least [00:51:22] no, this is NARA at Ft. Worth, TX [00:51:37] Hmm looks like I need to go visit family in Dallas soon [00:51:42] hahaha [00:51:52] if you do don't tell Niklas [00:52:01] he has a list of dozens of documents he wants scanned from there [00:52:04] Haha will he give me a shopping list? [00:52:09] Thought so [00:52:49] I still have a feeling th4 HEATER light is the LR temp [00:52:57] But I have no way to be sure as of yet [00:53:08] Apollo 11 Crew Checklist books 1-3 [00:53:12] sounds possibly useful? [01:26:40] night! [02:13:08] hello @thewonderidiot [02:55:22] hey astronauthen96__ [03:12:53] @thewonderidiot just made this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKvUrM2n0Y8&t=99s [03:29:03] nice! [11:57:25] morning [11:59:07] hey [12:00:44] got Aquarius up and running [12:01:46] hey @indy91 did you see my video last night? [12:02:28] I saw the link in the chat log, only had a quick glimpse at the video so far though [12:06:57] indy91, I saw your message last night, something about testing the rate limit on the Saturn V? [12:08:18] yes, that is not done properly right now, a little bit better in the Saturn IB LVDC. Doing that correctly will fix https://github.com/dseagrav/NASSP/issues/300 [12:08:52] right [12:10:24] unfortunately in my testing I noticed that the EDD does not have the full equations used for this [12:10:39] it's missing the actual rate limiting as well as the wraparound angle calculation [12:11:04] so that e.g. with a current angle of 1° and a commanded angle of 359° it doesn't try to do a 360° maneuver [12:12:31] is it possible to use the Saturn 1B equations for that then? [12:13:39] the equations are basically the same, what the Saturn IB LVDC already does right is differentiating between "Minor Loop" and "Minor Loop Support" [12:13:56] minor loop is called 25 times a second, 10 times a second in orbit [12:14:09] that's what doing the actual attitude control commands to the FCC [12:14:23] but a bunch of supporting calculations are done in the major loop [12:14:32] that is called minor loop support [12:14:38] and the rate liming is done in there [12:15:52] and what both of our LVDCs are doing wrong is they are modifying the commanded attitude [12:16:45] but the minor loop support routine should actually be calculating an attitude difference command for the minor loop [12:17:01] and the minor loop should just be working with that difference, not the actual commanded attitude [12:17:18] and that is basically at the heart of that issue you had [12:19:33] sounds complex [12:20:02] one thing i noticed on apollo 7 is that for the first stage of flight the attitude pitch seems to bounce slightly [12:20:45] AlexB_88, yeah, it is [12:21:22] astronauthen96__, I believe we are doing the attitude control etc. correctly already, but the Saturn IB doesn't quite have the right moments of inertia [12:21:32] so it's reacting too much on the steering [12:21:55] while the Saturn V is a bit too sluggish [12:22:03] it barely can follow the pitch program [12:23:46] so that just needs a bit of physical parameter tweaking [12:23:59] I should do that some day, I've done the same analysis with CSM, CM and LM [12:26:48] at least it gets me into orbit [12:27:02] oh yes, it works fine [12:27:06] just not perfectly [12:27:12] not as good as it probably should [12:27:38] at least its not 1 second behind like before :p [12:29:02] and for orb rate do i have to pitch down much or just slightly [12:29:52] just slightly, it's a pretty small attitude rate [12:30:16] about 0.05°/s for lunar orbit [12:31:02] so you will have to correct that every so often, if you get too far away from the desired ORDEAl pitch attitude [12:32:52] astronauthen96__ orb rate means you rotate the spacecraft so that it will always have the same orientation with respects to the surface. So you pitch as much as you need so that. [12:35:08] So I have finished activation the LM and have a small oddity: [12:35:32] When switch GUID CONTROL sw to AGS, I get an ECS caution light [12:35:40] lol [12:35:44] that doesn't seem right [12:35:51] hehe did not think so [12:37:48] if (lem->SuitFanRotary.GetState() == 1 && lem->scera2.GetVoltage(3, 5) > 2.5) { lightlogic = true; } // Suit fan 1 failure [12:38:06] SC2, SA3, channel 5 is the guidance control switch [12:38:43] haha [12:39:34] wheres the Grumman guy that wired this? :p [12:39:51] I think he is called Ryan [12:39:57] hehe [12:45:46] and just wondering what you guys have your ambient light level set to? [12:46:25] mine is at 10 [12:47:10] mine is 25, i dont think the far side of the moon is pitch black [12:47:42] that setting wont affect that in Orbiter 2016 [12:48:58] it probably would be quite dark I think, except maybe with the Earth shining [12:49:51] do you have the hi res textures? [12:49:57] yes [12:51:06] i dont think those would be great for my frame rates and i dont know how to switch it back to the normal textures [12:51:44] AlexB_88, fix is pushed [12:52:01] thanks [12:52:54] astronauthen96_ what is your Max resolution level setting at now? [12:52:57] just needed to change the channel there [12:53:09] and the check of the suit fan switch was redundant [12:53:34] what really triggered your alarm is that I added the guidance control switch setting to the SCEA recently [12:53:38] to the correct channel [12:54:00] but the CWEA looked at that same, but wrong channel [12:54:21] and has been doing that for quite a while [12:54:31] just was never relevant before [12:54:41] because there was nothing on that channel [12:55:02] indy91, thanks. Also the QUAD tb you fixed yesterday works good, but I think ontop of the tbs being gray when unpowered, the valves should be open as well, as when I actually apply power to SCEA, those tbs go back to BP [12:55:25] my res is at 19 [12:55:30] unless I open them of course [12:55:45] but the ACT check seems to indicate those should be open already [12:56:35] the Systems Handbook is pretty clear that those should be closed at launch [12:56:41] so do i just add them over the dx9 textures? [12:56:48] it shows System A in a state prior to pressurization [12:56:56] ah [12:56:57] and System B subsequent to pressurization [12:57:11] and the valves are closed in the schematic for system A, open for system B [13:00:10] hmm, maybe the checklist is asking you to open them, and not just verify it [13:01:04] also, I am pretty sure those valves main purpose is to prevent leaks during TLC [13:01:15] they were removed later, because that didn't turn out to be a problem [13:01:31] but the missions that had those valves (up to Apollo 14) probably should have them closed [13:02:01] but I am seeing the procedures and I'm not quite sure what to make of it [13:04:50] one possibility [13:05:13] there are latching relays used to actuate the valves and show their state [13:05:34] maybe there is a mismatch between actual valve state and latching relay state at launch [13:07:10] hmm [13:07:12] on ACT-7 [13:07:17] it says "vlv open" [13:07:20] its weird because in the A12 activation checklist , ACT-7, intial activation status it actually says those valves are open [13:07:23] yeah [13:08:19] haha should have read yours before hitting enter [13:09:40] and the A14 one indicates the same [13:13:52] ok, I now believe that those valves were only prevent a leak during the powered up phase [13:14:00] so that you could isolate a thruster pair [13:14:27] AOH doesn't have anything to say about those valves, because it's a J-Mission AOH [13:15:33] and just to confirm, this fix fixed it [13:16:33] great [13:16:35] the ECS light thing, that is [13:16:40] yes [13:16:41] so those valve might have been open [13:17:18] so I wonder why the Systems Handbook says they have to be closed at launch [13:18:37] yeah [13:20:25] LM-1 Systems Handbook has a very similar schematic [13:20:29] and there they are open [13:27:36] oh, I found something good [13:27:45] Apollo 11 Mission Report supplement about the LM RCS [13:27:56] preflight activity [13:28:13] RCS manifold evacuated and isol valves were closed on June 18th [13:28:30] tanks loaded on June 19th and June 22nd [13:28:53] isol valves opened to fill manifolds on July 14th [13:29:22] and that was it with the isol valves [13:29:27] so they were open [13:29:43] the same mission report supplement has a schematics of the LM RCS [13:29:53] basically identical to the one in the LM-8 Systems Handbook [13:29:59] and also show them closed [13:30:22] so I am now pretty sure they were open, opened 2 days before launch [13:34:24] nice [14:12:01] pushed [14:12:16] good thing that I set up these valve classes properly [14:12:23] so it's really easy now to have them open by default [14:16:50] great