[14:00:19] NASSP Logging has been started by indy91 [16:04:42] good morning [16:18:32] hey Alex [16:22:59] video card died on me :( [16:25:22] oh nooo [16:25:48] was it NASSP's fault? :D [16:28:29] I think it was ASUS's fault [16:29:18] oh don't scare me, I have a GTX 970 from Asus as well [16:30:39] how long did you have it? [16:30:52] well I think it was a freak thing [16:31:08] Ive had many ASUS cards over the years and no issues up until this one [16:31:25] I had it for 1.5 years [16:32:12] hmm, yeah, that's not all that long [16:32:44] I was playing MSFS and the PC shutdown during the session [16:32:55] and it would not boot up again [16:33:37] so I removed the videocard and switched to my motherboard's video card and then it booted [16:33:49] yeah that's pretty clear [16:34:46] I am just hoping it didnt damage the PCI-E slots [16:35:06] everything is working fine oterwise, I just dont have a spare card to test with [16:35:23] right [16:36:00] when my monitor died I wasn't 100% sure at first that it really was the monitor and not the graphics card instead [16:36:40] but at least I could test it [16:38:06] 1.5 years, is that too long for warranty? [16:45:13] I hve 3 years luckily [16:45:16] have* [17:37:49] morning! [18:29:49] hey Mike [18:35:21] yo [18:35:40] no progress on Sundance last night, but I completed first pass scanning of the FCC schematics [18:36:13] nice! [18:36:17] it was a challenge, because of the way they were printed [18:36:54] in order to get all of the details to show up, without anything getting washed out, I ended up scanning them as photos in color at 600DPI [18:37:13] the good news is that I can read things in the scans that I can't even read with my naked eyes, because they're too faded [18:37:20] haha [18:37:24] the bad news is that my scans folder is 6GB [18:37:25] so uh [18:37:32] I need to find a way to cut that down without losing detail lol [18:37:32] hmm [18:37:52] will have to play with jpeg compressions and whatnot [18:38:08] I think I'm going to rescan the foldouts and manually stitch them first though [18:38:09] yeah [18:38:23] turns out the usual process doesn't work well with color scans [18:40:06] in related news, the FCC manual is out for delivery :D [18:40:28] I think once you go into the megabytes rather than gigabytes range you are good haha [18:40:49] sets 999MB as the goal [18:41:02] :P [18:41:08] I'd download that [18:41:12] haha [18:41:18] I think that should be pretty easily doable [18:48:50] how many pages is that? [18:49:02] um [18:49:55] just want to know how insane that 6GB really is per scan :D [18:50:06] despite what the file sizes imply, it's uh [18:50:09] 59 pages? [18:50:23] something like that [18:50:47] that's still quite large [18:50:55] really it was coming out to 60MB per page, or 120MB for the large-format "foldouts" [18:51:27] Saturn V FCC shematics are 8 pages each, while IB FCCs are 7 pages each [18:51:55] the FCC is not hugely complicated [18:51:57] and it includes AS-50(1)?, AS-502, AS-503, AS-201/202, AS-204, and AS-206 [18:52:05] a lot of logic for it is done in the Control Distributor [18:52:07] plus a bunch of supporting module schematics for IB [18:56:47] looking at the schematics I feel the same way I did when I first looked at the giant tangle of NOR logic for the AGC :D [18:57:13] hopefully the manual will help me understand what is what and how it all works together lol [18:58:32] I know a lot about the inputs and output for the FCC. And then I know what mathematical operations happen inside the FCC, which will not mean a lot electronically [18:59:33] you're already way better off than me then lol [19:00:04] it helps when you have implemented most of it :D [19:00:15] before I started the FCC was just some lines in the LVDC code [19:01:16] does the NASSP Saturn V actually have bending modes and things? it seems like filtering those out is primarily what the FCC is doing [19:01:53] nope [19:03:10] so what all is the NASSP FCC doing? [19:03:54] logic switching, where the control signals are going [19:04:01] S-IC, S-II, S-IVB burn mode, S-IVB coast mode [19:04:11] then, the actual control law [19:04:51] there are a bunch of (up to 8 or 9 I think) sets of gains that can be switched between [19:05:17] separate logic for spacecraft takeover [19:05:59] S-IC cant [19:06:09] about 500 lines of code for both Saturn IB and V [19:06:23] on the smaller side I would say code wise [19:08:00] okay yeah that all makes sense :D [19:08:13] https://github.com/orbiternassp/NASSP/blob/Orbiter2016/Orbitersdk/samples/ProjectApollo/src_saturn/FCC.cpp [19:12:09] what we are missing is the control accelerometer for the Saturn IB [19:16:08] hmm [19:16:11] what is that used for? [19:17:32] The pitch and yaw values are meas-ured by the Control Accelerometers whose sensitive [19:17:32] axes are perpendicular to the vehicle longitudinal [19:17:33] axis [19:17:54] The lateral acceleration control is used during [19:17:55] S-IB Stage propulsion to reduce structural loads from [19:17:56] aerodynamic forces and to provide minimum-drift [19:17:56] control [19:18:15] so essentially pitch and yaw rates [19:18:24] made part of the control law [19:18:55] maybe the Saturn IB is less aerodynamic stable than the Saturn V or so [19:19:18] hmm [19:19:19] interesting [21:01:09] night! [16:14:46] hey [16:38:46] morning! [16:39:06] hey guys [16:39:22] still have some LVDC orbital navigation bug that I have no luck figuring out :( [16:39:55] booo [16:40:01] that sucks [16:40:26] it should be even easier than in the Saturn V as I am now implementing it with a fixed step length [16:40:45] but something isn't right, maybe the transition from boost to orbital navigation [16:41:28] velocity is increasing once the orbital navigation is entered. That definitely can't be right, Apollo 7 insertion is at perigee [16:41:42] at least that means the issue is probably not timing related [16:42:51] oh [16:42:55] I think I just found it :D [16:43:06] I created a gravitation subroutine [16:43:15] that gets called 3 times in the orbital navigation [16:43:27] and the position vector is an input parameter [16:43:53] but it is actually using the LVDC position vector, not the input one... [16:44:00] for some calculations at least [16:44:04] haha [16:44:05] nice! [16:44:09] boost navigation only calls it once [16:44:17] probably already with the updated position vector [16:44:24] so the issue didn't happen there [16:44:41] only a test will tell if this is right now, but it probably is :D [16:46:22] excellent [16:46:37] how is the jpeg-ization going [16:46:59] I got the scans down to 700MB total last night without noticeable compression artifacts [16:47:20] may play with it just a bit more [16:47:48] not too bad [16:48:45] did the manual arrive yet? [16:48:48] it did [16:48:53] fun [16:48:59] and it is not lying, it's an extremely technical manual [16:49:32] yeah, the EDS one is really good [16:49:43] essentially has schematics [16:49:48] just not a very good scan [16:50:36] even has descriptions of the LCC consoles for the EDS [16:50:41] this one will be good :D [16:51:14] it's funny because it seems like it does not talk very much about the big picture [16:51:55] and just gets straight into sentences like "The amplified delta phi Y attitude error signal from dc amplifier J34 is routed through switching circuit A3 to delt aphi Y S-IC filter J125." [16:52:12] haha [16:52:14] will definitely go hand-in-hand with the schematics well [16:52:38] as expected, it is Saturn V only [16:52:47] right [16:52:53] and the ebay seller has now put up the other copy of this manual he has [16:53:03] and looking closer at its table of contents, that one is IB only [16:53:26] so now I'm tempted to get that too... not sure if worth it [16:55:07] they are quite different, makes sense to have separate manuals [16:55:10] yeah [16:55:21] only the S-IVB control is common [16:55:22] it probably is worth it, and I will probably be mad in the future if I don't buy it [16:55:31] and SC takeover I guess [16:56:32] well I hope that the Saturn IB one won't look too interesting for potential buyers, as in, getting too expensive D: [16:56:33] :D [16:59:31] it's buy-it-now, at $575 [16:59:46] which, to be fair, is probably roughly what I think these things tend to go for [17:00:06] but still makes me think about it a lot lol [17:00:58] https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-SATURN-IB-V-FLIGHT-CONTROL-COMPUTER-TECHNICAL-MANUAL-S-IU501-MSFC-VERSION-3/114271416166?hash=item1a9b1b6f66:g:vgwAAOSwgHxe8VKu:sc:USPSPriority!94080!US!-1 [17:25:02] thanks so much! [17:25:08] Github also changed their UI [17:25:50] not sure that I like it [17:26:25] yeah I don't :/ [17:36:23] S-IVB rate gyro [17:38:46] as opposed to IU rate gyro [17:39:26] hmm? [17:39:52] the first schematic has both IU rate gyro and S-IVB rate gyro inputs [17:40:15] I didn't know the S-IVB ever had rate gyros [17:40:33] oh the technical manual has an interesting sentence about that [17:40:33] one sec [17:41:28] or, I feel like having heard something about it at one point, but I am still surprised to see it [17:42:32] hmm, from the intro, "These signals include attitude correction signals from the LVDC, applied through the LVDA; angular rate information from the Control-EDS Rate Gyro Package or the S-IVB Control Rate Gyro; and timing and programming information which is supplied by the LVDCA through the LVDA and the IU Switch Selector." [17:42:38] that's not the sentence I was thinking of though [17:42:43] where was that.. [17:44:03] here [17:44:47] "Angular error rate signals are developed by the Control-EDS Rate Gyro Package in the Instrument Unit. These signals are applied to the Flight Control Computer via the Control Signal Processor. [17:44:48] Apollo 4 had a switch selector command to turn it off [17:45:17] In the Flight Control Computer, the angular rate error signals are coupled through jumpers and closed relay contacts to the yaw and pitch servo amplifiers. [17:45:18] ... [17:46:03] The jumpers provide for selection of angular rate error signals from the Control-EDS Rate Gyro Package in the IU, or from the Control Rate Gyros in the S-IVB stage. However, this selection must be made prior to launch." [17:46:17] ah interesting [17:46:34] I don't think the S-IVB ones were ever used [17:46:47] trying to find if and when they were removed [17:49:38] maybe they were still used for instrumentation [17:49:47] but definitely not for attitude control [17:49:50] not even on AS-501 [17:49:53] ah, could be [17:58:46] by the way [17:59:04] according to the technical manual, this thing was 320 watts at 28 volts [17:59:15] which seems completely crazy to me considering how much it is doing [18:01:21] was the IU completely battery-powered? [18:01:53] yes [18:02:25] four 350 ampere-hours batteries, on AS-508 at least [18:02:48] the Saturn Systems Handbook has current numbers [18:02:55] FCC has 3.16A max [18:04:06] ah no [18:04:12] that is just on the one battery [18:04:31] 6.43A max [18:04:38] 6.32* [18:08:31] well I haven't found anything on the S-IVB rate gyros [18:08:56] oh huh [18:09:19] that's quite a bit less than the 320W max listed in the technical manual [18:10:57] I can't read [18:11:06] it is 3.16 as I said at first :D [18:11:12] hahaha [18:11:28] maybe it doesn't just count the FCC there [18:11:36] control signal processor is 3A more [18:11:56] 3.16A is perfectly reasonable [18:11:57] hmm [18:11:58] but that is the steady state current in S-II flight [18:12:06] oh speaking of control signal processor [18:12:13] could be that it temporarily has more [18:12:17] and that could be the 320 [18:12:39] https://www.ebay.com/itm/NASA-SATURN-V-APOLLO-MARTIN-MARIETTA-SIGNAL-PROCESSOR-OFFICAL-PHOTOS-IBM-SIU501/124237064720 [18:12:51] interesting binder of photos there [18:13:09] I don't think there's really anything we can learn from it though lol [18:14:02] yeah [18:22:53] yeah the manual will probably help a lot with the schematics :D [18:23:10] I like the symbols they are using though [18:23:25] for "S-IC Burn" etc [18:23:26] hahaha yeah [18:23:41] I should have it scanned in the next couple of days [18:23:42] same kind of inputs that we are using, based on the Systems Handbook [18:23:43] it's not too big [18:25:09] https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19660022072.pdf [18:25:25] this has a bunch of ground inputs and outptus to the IU [18:25:36] oh cool [18:25:40] including pin and connector numbers [18:25:58] only downside, it's for the Saturn IB [18:28:27] I can see a bit of corresponding stuff [18:28:47] like, J8 is the connector for the "yaw simulate" input [18:28:50] and there's plenty of S-IB schematics in there too :) [18:29:50] yeah [18:30:01] schematic 7 is a good one for me. [18:30:09] Switching Control [18:30:14] lots of relays and their inputs [18:30:36] including test inputs [18:30:41] :D [18:31:55] there's not too many pages, but I made an index in case it's helpful [18:32:08] yeah, that is helpful [18:33:07] I guess the first few pages are the most up-to-date for the Saturn V then [18:33:11] yep [18:33:26] AS-503 is unfortunately as new as it gets [18:33:34] but it does have the engine cant so that's good [18:33:50] yeah [18:42:04] some inputs I wasn't expecting [18:42:10] like IU guidance failure [18:47:07] but this is definitely what I hoped for and will probably be useful for NASSP as well :D [18:48:00] awesome! that is very good to hear :D [18:48:58] 1st motion signal is probably what prevents FCC commands before liftoff [18:49:49] this was interesting to read, but you probably already know this [18:50:10] "The S-IC burn mode is activated prior to lift-off by the S-IC burn mode substitude signal from the GSE." [18:50:17] *substitute [18:50:33] yeah, I knew that [18:50:53] we can simulate that [18:50:59] but do we simulate that... [18:51:44] haha we do [18:51:53] haha nice [18:52:14] I don't know if that is really related, but we switch that substitute signal on when the EDS is set to launch mode in the LCC [18:52:29] that is also what turns on the engine lights in the CM [18:54:15] if there is any practical reason to have that turned on before liftoff then I have forgotten it [18:54:37] it does make sense though to have the FCC on before liftoff though [18:54:46] you wouldn't know if it's really working otherwise [18:54:59] right, yeah [18:56:23] maybe just because the Systems Handbook says so [18:56:25] "The FCC is put into the S-IC Burn Mode with a GSE command prior to liftoff." [18:57:49] looking at our code, I probably should make sure nothing is commanded to the S-IVB APS thrusters before liftoff... [20:44:59] night! [16:20:09] good morning [16:30:36] hey Alex [16:35:22] so with LVDC orbital navigation fixed I'll probably test fly Apollo 7 a bit more, especially the attitude maneuvers before CSM sep [16:36:08] and I can also implement LVDC state vector updates, I understand better how that works [16:43:06] ah great [17:40:23] morning! [17:42:43] indy91: ^^ [17:53:21] hey Mike [17:53:25] awesome, thanks! [17:57:48] definitely helpful for the schematics [17:59:07] yeah for sure [17:59:21] and with tons of helpful pictures in case you get your hands on a real one :D [18:41:11] also, down to 15,202 differences in my Sundance build [19:16:04] considering where you started that is really good :D [19:21:28] haha yeah [19:21:32] over 20,000 words correct! [19:44:12] cya! [20:54:01] I guess what I am working on might eventually help you out as well [20:54:10] if you want to feed LVDC data to a FCC [20:54:32] in whatever shape or form [20:54:42] haha yeah [20:55:03] also I just bit the bullet and bought the AS-200 version of the manual as well [20:55:07] a bit smoother stuff [20:55:15] oh nice [20:55:28] not for your wallet [20:55:34] but for everything else :D [20:55:37] haha yeah [21:02:36] lots of redundancy in the FCC [21:02:42] that's probably a bit overkill for NASSP [21:03:03] I'm not implementing lots of relays for one function [21:03:08] lol yeah [21:03:13] although I did that in the LM control electronics [21:03:28] especially the guidance control switch, PGNS vs AGS [21:03:38] that's a lot of relays just for that one switch, as you can imagine [21:04:04] failure of one of them would already have interesting effects [21:04:23] hahaha yeah [21:04:23] like, partial AGS control when the switch is in PGNS [21:04:31] that would be no good [21:05:46] very confusing [21:05:59] although the malfunction checklist can help identifying the issue [21:06:17] that sometimes goes down to specific relay or relay contact failures [21:07:26] http://apollolaunchcontrol.com/Apollo_Launch_Control/Control_Panels/Pages/GSE_panels_files/Media/CONTROL%20COMPUTER%20INPUT%20SUBSTITUTE%200125/CONTROL%20COMPUTER%20INPUT%20SUBSTITUTE%200125.jpg [21:07:47] that is the LCC panel that does a bunch of FCC switching [21:08:39] a rare case of a Saturn IB one it seems [21:08:54] I think most pictures on that page are very early [21:09:18] SA-500F configuration [21:11:26] the main FCC console is missing [21:11:34] BD9 [21:11:35] FLIGHT CONTROL COMPUTER [21:13:15] hmm, on which page? [21:13:37] and nice, everything on that panel makes sense :D [21:14:29] http://apollolaunchcontrol.com/ [21:15:35] http://apollolaunchcontrol.com/Apollo_Launch_Control/Control_Panels/Control_Panels.html [21:19:07] oh nice [21:42:55] night! [17:16:01] morning! [17:19:52] hey [17:23:00] what's up? [18:03:26] playing around in MSFS [19:36:07] good evening [19:42:33] yo [19:44:30] what's up? [19:44:52] working on Sundance [19:45:25] my bank 43 is currently overflowing, but last time it assembled I was down to ~11,000 differences [19:45:28] getting closer [19:47:42] how does a bank overflow anyway. Just too much stuff in it and you need to move it? [19:47:52] yeah [19:48:03] right now it's because I've moved everything into bank 43 that's supposed to be there [19:48:14] but Luminary has more extended verbs [19:48:20] so not everything fits until I delete those [19:49:10] right [19:50:13] and now it's worse because I've added R32 to the verb table but I haven't defined it yet lol [19:51:24] well I definitely would prefer to have a R32 :D [19:51:33] I will get to it shortly :D [19:51:48] in unrelated news, new interesting thing on ebay this morning, from a different seller [19:53:41] hmm [19:53:47] the restricted NTRS has those [19:54:10] but they were never public [19:54:30] apparently the UAH archives used to have them publicly online [19:54:53] but I wasn't able to find anything working [19:55:15] haha, I have tried that a lot [19:55:27] there are some links still online to those old documents [19:55:36] I'm pretty sure that's where the EDD also came from [19:55:49] but only a small number of them were archived [19:56:19] yeah [19:56:23] some F-1 engine manuals is what I found from that [19:56:27] but that was basically it [19:56:41] no systematic archiving of their website was ever done it seems [19:57:37] too bad :( [20:00:51] was that taken offline at the same time as NTRS? [20:01:15] maybe it was done for the same reason [20:01:48] hmmm, I'm not sure [20:04:46] http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?topic=983.msg16272#msg16272 [20:05:13] some dead links :D [20:05:51] yep [20:07:23] oh! just defined R32 and everything fits in bank 43 now [20:07:28] down to 9925 differences :D [20:07:50] that's a nice jump! [20:08:00] four digits! [20:08:03] getting very close [20:09:05] do you still want any help with P10, 11 or 57? [20:09:15] oh [20:09:24] no but I did want to ask you to look over what I did for cross-product steering [20:09:34] and figure out if I'm using the right names [20:09:39] or if my made-up names make any sense [20:10:27] sure [20:10:36] not all of it has been pushed into the disassembly yet [20:10:37] the name of the routine at least makes sense in Sundance [20:10:44] other than in Luminary... [20:10:54] https://github.com/thewonderidiot/virtualagc/blob/sundance_reconstruction/SundanceXXX/P40-P47.agc#L870 [20:15:36] well the first part is identical to Luminary69, so that is probably correct :D [20:16:40] hehe [20:16:42] yeah [20:17:59] hey Niklas [20:19:57] hey [20:23:10] extended verbs all match Sundance now :D [20:28:12] hmm, DLOAD 36D, is that the number 36 or from the stack? [20:29:19] from the stack [20:29:54] bank 43 done, down to 9541 differences [20:30:41] by the way, I think I figured out what's up with the weird 00007 in the noun tables [20:33:50] what is it? [20:34:36] https://github.com/thewonderidiot/sundance/blob/master/b1_292.disagc#L6398 [20:34:52] they defined the label "SPARE" to be equal to 7 for use in the downlink lists, and use it extensively there [20:35:05] I bet somebody decided to put "ECADR SPARE" in the noun tables [20:35:25] and also probably "ECADR SPARE +1, ECADR SPARE +2" for the one noun that has 00007, 00010, 00011 [20:36:00] hmm, does that have any bad effects? [20:36:36] nope [20:36:43] it's just unusual I think [20:37:19] what does it show when you display the nouns? [20:37:33] 0 for SPARE [20:37:38] garbage for SPARE +1 and SPARE +2 [20:37:48] probably [20:37:54] you'll have to try it to find out ;) [20:38:51] I sure will [20:39:57] I guess it will take a bit of backtracking for what is in 36D [20:40:19] oh [20:40:21] or not [20:40:31] "length of vector after UNIT" [20:44:23]