[12:56:15] NASSP Logging has been started by thymo [12:56:17] Hey Niklas [12:59:31] hey [12:59:58] working on making the Space Digitals display work in non-MPT mode so that you can easily get your pericynthion altitude :D [13:00:12] Awesome! [13:00:51] Ryan has been showing me how to do things with it, it's a really useful tool once you know how to use it. [13:01:27] also still a buggy tool as Ryan has experienced [13:03:49] also adding a section in the manual for the display. Mostly stolen from an IBM RTCC document [13:05:55] One thing I noticed is that there is no way to go back to "Present GET" once you change the GET in the state vector uplink display [13:06:11] If you input 0:0;0 it generates one for launch time [13:06:15] ah, it says present get if the GET is negative [13:06:32] I think I'll add that to the description of the button [13:06:36] So -1:0:0 will get it to Present? [13:06:39] Good to know [13:06:42] yep, anything below 0 [13:06:57] it will also say "Present GET" again then [13:57:26] good morning [14:04:20] hey Ryan [14:06:09] I am embarking on adding CM RCS heaters [14:06:34] As far as I can tell we do not have a simulation of them [14:08:38] yeah [14:09:10] I dont know the CSM coding as well as the LM, where would be an appropriate place for these [14:09:26] I have radiators and heaters in the config for them [14:16:06] what do those heaters even do [14:16:21] in the Systems Handbook it looks like they just keep the thrusters open? [14:16:34] the thruster valves [14:18:35] They energize the direct coils [14:18:46] and that warms the oxidizer lines [14:19:07] and those have transducers on them [14:19:58] ok it's the switch, but otherwise separate wiring for the two CM RCS systems [14:20:09] so probably makes sense to do something in the CM RCS class [14:20:13] CMRCSPropellantSource [14:20:29] hmm [14:20:38] Not sure [14:20:47] this is really just for the thrusters I guess [14:20:52] not propellant? [14:20:53] yes [14:21:22] warms 6 of the 12 jets [14:21:37] thus warming the oxidizer lines to prevent freezing [14:23:48] ah great, the relays used to control this use a separate power source from the heaters... [14:24:36] requires RCS Logic it seems like [14:24:57] yes [14:25:23] the switch is powered through RCS logic I believe [14:25:36] And the switch then allows power from the heater cbs to flow [14:26:38] logic power lets the heaters switch energize the relays that allow heater power to flow if I am reading correctly [14:27:47] yeah trying to find out where those relays sit [14:28:32] which could be a good place to put the whole code for switching the heaters on/off [14:28:46] Makes sense [14:28:55] K15-18 correct? [14:29:51] yeah [14:31:23] oh interesting [14:31:35] it's in the CM RCS Control Box [14:31:37] in the SECS [14:32:05] I haven't implemented the relays yet [14:32:13] class is RCSC [14:32:14] Oh that makes sense [14:32:15] in secs.h [14:32:42] SECS is required for RCS logic and heaters correct? [14:32:54] yeah [14:33:01] you could put the logic at the bottom of RCSC::Timestep [14:34:29] and the class has functions for the power requirement [14:34:32] CMRCSLogicA() and CMRCSLogicB() [14:34:38] that is RLA and RLB in the Systems Handbook [14:34:56] oh perfect I was going to ask about those [14:35:40] at least this logic should be in this class [14:35:55] the heating stuff itself maybe not.. let's see if there is a better place [14:35:58] The logic just energizes the relays [14:36:24] And those relays closed allowes the cb power to energize the direct coils [14:36:35] yeah [14:36:46] hmm [14:36:56] I need to find how much heating they provide [14:37:01] so basically you could also heat the thrusters by hand [14:37:26] so maybe this logic should just energize the direct coils [14:37:42] and then some other code checks if the direct coils are energized and provide heating based on that [14:37:45] yeah I was reading that procedure using the soft stops [14:38:00] I like that idea [14:39:22] at the bottom of Saturn::JoystickTimestep is the code that energizes the direct coils for the propellant dump after chute opening [14:39:43] maybe there should be an OR for this logic [14:40:08] it's already checking stuff in the RCSC [14:41:35] that should be moved into the RCSC class maybe [14:42:33] let me switch builds really quick [14:43:00] CMRCSLogicA() && ((GetInterconnectAndPropellantBurnRelayA() && GetPropellantDumpInhibitA()) || HeatingLogicA()) [14:43:03] something like this [14:44:47] and there already is a perfect function to check if a CM RCS thruster is commanded to fire [14:44:48] Saturn::GetCMRCSStateCommanded [14:45:13] can't check the thruster level from the Orbiter API, as it will return 0 if the thruster isn't actually firing [14:45:36] and I guess you have the propellant switched off during this... [14:47:45] yeah preheating is dont before pressurization [14:47:47] done* [14:48:08] which is why the energizing via RCS direct can heat them as well using RHC [14:48:16] without firing for 10 minutes lol [14:48:35] yeah the CM RCS doesn't have a lot of propellant haha [14:48:41] I am doing these changes in my CMECS branch [14:48:46] ok [14:48:50] haha yeah 200 seconds or so firing time [14:48:56] per engine [14:49:19] doesn't take long to get rid of the remaining propellant during the dump [14:49:23] by just firing the engines [14:49:46] Oh I also labeled the jets by number in the config [14:49:54] so we can connect the right ones as necessary [14:51:16] right [14:51:45] Thymo, I pushed the update for the space digitals display. Maybe you want to check your Apollo 8 pericynthion altitude with it or so [14:54:59] ok I have updated that branch with my current changes [14:55:19] I am still trying to digest this code [14:56:59] I can implement the logic for this if you want [14:57:17] and you can then check on the state of the thrusters and implement heating [14:57:28] that would be awesome [14:57:32] no problem [15:01:15] hmm it looks like the direct coils on all of the jets are energized, but only some of them have transducers [15:04:37] ah, yeah it looked like all of the coils [15:04:53] although there is an error in the Systems Handbook [15:05:25] oh [15:05:26] or not [15:05:39] when you dump the RCS it doesn't fire all thrusters [15:05:44] all but 1 in each system [15:05:52] forgot about that [15:10:33] Just for completion I have added each thruster and coil even though only half will have transducers [15:13:36] hmm, which thruster is which haha [15:14:24] I have a diagram [15:14:36] And they are all labeled by jet [15:14:57] yeah, but in NASSP... [15:15:02] ohh [15:15:28] ah it's just 2 thrusters I need to know [15:15:33] and they are on different systems [15:15:42] thruster 0 is system A, 1 is system B, easy [15:17:07] or System 1 and 2, whatever the numbering is [15:19:06] I'll do a test, I want to see what happens if all thrusters are firing [15:19:24] for the dump they probably leave out 2 thrusters because it would cause an attitude rate [15:21:50] Yeah I think its 1 and 2 [15:23:34] oh wow [15:23:39] that's quite the attitude rate [15:23:43] with the CSM even [15:24:25] The dump? [15:24:32] pre heating [15:24:45] it "fires" all CM RCS thrusters [15:25:12] haha even though it shouldnt actually fire? [15:25:53] yeah I activated the RCS propellant [15:25:58] just wanted to see what it does [15:26:11] the thrusters for the dump also cause an attitude rate, but not as bad [15:26:23] I guess deep in the atmosphere on chutes it doesn't do much [15:26:32] but in vacuum it still does [15:26:56] I think I have it right, doing a PR shortly [15:27:27] yeah on chutes and with atmosphere the thrust isnt doing much [15:27:36] 93lbs per jet [15:27:50] n7275: WIki should be up again btw. No more 502 [15:28:11] indy91: Will test it late this evening [15:28:16] ok thanks [15:35:55] PR is up [15:39:10] taking a look, thanks! [15:42:17] ok now when the controller or dump is activated, where is it drawing power? [15:45:42] Ideally whenever those direct coils are energized it should be generating heat [15:48:32] good question about the power, haven't added that... [15:50:06] haha ok [15:51:09] I am thinking we should wire the boilers to the heater CBs and any other energizing via the direct coils we drawpower and generate heat [15:51:56] that way we can do the heaters now and add the heating/powerdraw from use separately as necessary [15:55:39] yeah [15:56:38] I'm implementing it [15:56:42] great [15:56:52] at least for the dump [15:57:25] Ok peeking around in this code, trying to figure out what all it's doing [15:58:15] have to figure out how much power is drawn per thruster [16:02:31] CSM Data Book has a value of 52.5W [16:02:50] for all thrusters on one system? Maybe... [16:04:58] thats funny [16:04:59] morning! [16:05:16] doing the math thats what I computed for the heaters [16:05:25] 11.25A / 6 thrusters [16:05:44] 52.5W per thruster [16:05:49] ah per thruster [16:05:51] hey Mike [16:05:58] 11.25 *28V [16:05:59] that's a lot of Watts [16:06:03] that divided by 6 [16:06:19] thats what comes fromt he heater breakers at least [16:06:23] from the* [16:06:28] so 262.5W for the dump [16:06:31] 5 thrusters [16:06:49] direct coils use a lot of power I guess haha [16:07:28] but it makes sense and probably no coincidence we got the same number [16:07:57] yeah master electrical equipment list in the CSM Data Book had 52.5W [16:08:00] and QTY as 12 [16:08:25] haven't found a separate number for the dump yet [16:08:55] Yeah I just found the heater cb delivered a nominal 11.25A and multiplied it by 28V and divided by 6 thrusters [16:09:22] each heater breaker was connected to 6 thrusters [16:09:25] power for the dump comes from a different CB, so there should be a number for that in this list [16:09:29] ah [16:09:31] right' [16:09:36] RCS logic bus [16:16:24] hmm [16:16:28] so how should this work [16:17:24] power for the boilers and the generate heat [16:17:37] should that be in the same place where the thrusters are "fired"? [16:17:43] Hmm [16:18:10] Well the generate heat should come from the logic bus [16:18:19] those "boilers" would be on no matter which method of firing the engine is used [16:18:21] while the boilers from the heater breakers [16:18:53] unless we omit the boilers entirely and just generate heat from the appropriate source? [16:19:03] because its going to be either powered or not [16:19:15] we dont need any other logic [16:19:24] yeah, maybe just put a certain amount of heat into the thruster when the thruster is commanded to be fired [16:19:43] just a for loop with the thrusters [16:19:49] and the draw power separately [16:19:54] so no boiler I guess [16:20:08] might be the simplest solution considering the multiple sources of power [16:20:11] I will change them to heatloads [16:21:27] the only catch with that is they will have to draw power in code [16:21:37] where using a boiler draws power and generates heat [16:23:10] right, but that is already partially done [16:23:24] CM Direct RCS with the RHC draws power [16:23:31] I'm just adding the dump [16:23:34] Ok [16:23:38] and now also the heaters I guess [16:23:43] I will add the heatloads then [16:23:51] yeah has to be on code, but it's consistent with the whole JoystickTimestep code [16:23:54] in* [16:24:20] would it make sense to have the heaters as boilers though or just do the same generate heat and draw power [16:25:10] or just turn the bolier on whenever it fires [16:25:19] no never mind [16:26:35] unlikely case, but how would it draw power if more than one system tries to energize the coil [16:28:26] well lets look at the power sources [16:28:37] its either the logic bus or the cmheater breakers correct? [16:31:25] if that's the case, the boilers will draw only from the heater breakers and any other energizing will draw from the logic bus [16:32:35] I thought the boilers were getting removed? [16:32:56] and I meant in the real CSM. If both the signal for a dump and the heaters are on [16:33:24] would it draw 2x the amount of Watts normally required to energize the coils or would it split the power load [16:33:49] I have to decided this [16:33:51] if (secs.rcsc.GetCMRCSHeatersA()) [16:33:56] CMHeater1MnACircuitBraker.DrawPower(315.0); [16:33:59] else if (secs.rcsc.GetCMRCSDumpA()) [16:34:03] RCSLogicMnACircuitBraker.DrawPower(262.5); [16:34:14] or instead of "else if" a second "if" [16:34:42] I will pull the boilers out then [16:34:53] We just need something to generate heat per thruster [16:35:29] generate heat 52.5w for each thruster [16:36:31] yeah, I have something for that [16:36:45] just below the code firing the thrusters, but it could be put elsewhere [16:36:52] as it doesn't quite fit in "JoystickTimestep" [16:37:11] boilers removed heatloads added [16:37:29] ok, I'll PR the change I did and then we will see how it should work [16:37:33] great [16:40:00] https://github.com/rcflyinghokie/NASSP/pull/45/files#diff-9a2bb5e9a85b8a742447cba543fdc6ea636ef39c86e5d8ff2ed2e91356847b41R2331 [16:40:11] I put a for loop there at the end [16:40:20] going through all the thrusters and if they are on [16:40:37] hmm, maybe that checks the primary coils too [16:40:45] but those would have a similar effect I guess [16:44:37] So whats the best way to add the generate heats in the for loop [16:45:08] And also the RCS states, is that each thruster? [16:45:50] ah yes it is [16:45:59] so we need to correlate each of those with a heatload [16:53:09] so how would those individual heatloads go in the for loop for each thruster, and which thrusters are which lol [16:55:35] Saturn class gets an array of pointers [16:55:48] mapping thrusters to radiators [16:56:31] hmm [16:56:43] how do we put the heat into it actually [16:57:09] ah thermic of course [17:00:09] yep [17:00:12] GenerateHeat [17:02:04] I have a heatload for each coil that can be called [17:03:12] ah of course [17:06:30] I'll try to work out the order :D [17:07:17] quick question: am I correct in thinking that Artemis has more Saturn takeover capability than Comanche? [17:10:59] it's better I would say [17:11:22] with some extra logic in the CMC and not purely attitude error or RHC deflection [17:12:22] not sure when that got added [17:13:03] I guess PCR 954 is one [17:13:10] "Revised Manual Booster Backup Guidance" [17:13:41] hmm [17:13:45] "Saturn DAP" stuff seemingly [17:14:23] there is a tiny bit in GSOP section 5 with that PCR 954 [17:14:31] but more in section 3 of course [17:14:51] but PCR 954 is in Colossus 2E [17:15:00] difficult to say what's in 2E vs. 3 [17:15:58] hmmmmm interesting [17:16:55] padload wise it's already the same on Apollo 12 and 15 [17:17:24] 11, too [17:17:33] but that doesn't say much [17:18:15] haha yeah [17:18:26] trying to find some more out about Satanche [17:20:27] there is PCR 984 "Avoid Coarse Align during Saturn" in Colossus 2D [17:20:51] that sounds like a reasonable change haha [17:26:55] but in terms of behavior I am not sure if there is a difference between Comanche and Artemis [17:29:05] it might be PCR 954 [17:29:14] so maybe Satanche stuff was merged into Comanche as well [17:48:06] what actually is Satanche? [17:49:32] https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/SCB38-700518.pdf [17:49:32] Saturn+Comanche? :P [17:49:40] bottom of the last page of that SCB talks about it [17:51:25] nobody tell conspiracy theorists that there is an AGC version with "Satan" in it [17:51:26] https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/Documents/LUM164_text.pdf [17:51:30] lol yeah [17:51:48] so R40ARTMS is a new one I learned about from the new Artemis memos [17:52:05] that's a build of Artemis designed to be exactly equivalent to Colossus 2E [17:52:21] also I love the "Other Eyles Versions" entry for the LM lol [17:53:48] like Delta Guidance [17:54:04] I actually photographed the Colossus change memos for 73 through 108 [17:54:09] so those might have some answers too [17:54:46] it was so sad that Debbie had Colossus memos for 8-9 and 14-17 but not for 10-13 [17:54:49] Colossus or Comanche? [17:55:16] change memos [17:55:33] Colossus 73 to 108 was quite early :D [17:56:40] er [17:56:43] Comanche [17:56:44] lol [17:57:03] so apparently rev 98 was the initial Colossus 2E pre-release [17:57:40] "It should be noted that PCR 984 is not included in Revision 98 of Comanche, but will be incorporated in a future revision if PCR 954 isn't incorporated. PCR 954 supersedes PCR 984." [17:58:17] rcflyinghokie, you added the heat loads to ELECTRIC [17:58:22] aren't they HYDRAULIC? [17:59:56] and then in Comanche 102-104: "Coding was added to bypass coarse align if DAPDATR1 indicated Saturn configuration and AVEGBIT is set, i.e., Average G is on. (PCR 984 and ACB 115)." [18:00:24] indy91 yeah I moved them locally but never pushed it, they were still in electric there because I was copy pasting from boilers [18:00:40] and there was no further mention of PCR 954 or PCR 984 in the final memo which covers 105-108 [18:00:48] so, I'd say that PCR 954 was *not* in Colossus 2E [18:01:01] I'll have another PR soon, then it's all you haha. Tweaking the radiators I guess. [18:01:35] thewonderidiot, then the GSOP is lying [18:01:59] I think I trust these memos over the GSOP haha [18:02:17] pushed the moved heat loads, naming is the same [18:02:22] ok [18:05:45] these transducers should also hook up to the system test meter [18:06:54] 0V is -50F and 5V is 50F [18:10:54] so they can just pull from the rad temps [18:11:46] yeah [18:14:27] https://i.imgur.com/0SWR2uY.png [18:14:42] lol [18:15:42] GSOP only change? [18:16:13] no way, PCR 954 is definitely actually code [18:17:16] rcflyinghokie, next PR is up [18:17:51] now it's all you, unless you have trouble with the system test meter [18:20:20] but I enjoyed that I got to add missing relays in the SECS haha [18:22:19] Haha good! [18:22:40] Its been bothering me, but I dont know the CSM side as well as the LM so I was kind of afraid to start [18:22:54] So I relinquished to my comfort zone, the config files :P [18:23:56] haha [18:24:59] the Reaction Control System Controller where I added the relays is interesting [18:25:04] it's totally different in Block I [18:25:21] the Main Events Sequence Controller, another part of the SECS, nearly identical [18:25:35] the RCSC deals a lot with Mode 1A aborts [18:25:43] maybe they didn't like how that worked in Block I [18:26:27] had to totally rewrite the RCSC for Block I. The MESC, I changed one delay timer delay haha [18:29:49] Different in design or functionality? [18:29:52] or both [18:33:53] oh both actually. In Block I it is two boxes, one for system A and B [18:34:01] Block II one box for both [18:34:23] functionality is somewhat different, the relay logic seems quite different, but over all a Mode 1A abort didn't change much [18:34:30] maybe it had some single point failures or so [18:35:36] the dumping sequence of the propellants is different [18:35:58] in both Block I and II it of course actually dumps the propellant during Mode 1A [18:36:04] as there is no time to burn them [18:36:54] makes sense [18:42:01] I put the full 52.5W per thruster as heat load in the PR [18:42:11] I think that's what you wanted, right? [18:43:38] Yeah that sounds reasonable [18:43:53] I will use that and play with the rads [18:45:27] CSM Data Book had a few graphs how the temperature behaves [18:45:36] chapter 4.4 or so about the CM RCS [18:53:25] cool thanks [18:53:29] back in a few [20:19:10] potential LVDC orbital navigation bug spotted [20:21:57] uh oh [20:22:23] no it's great, it's a bit less accurate than it should be [20:22:40] we really only have two sources for the complete equations for it [20:22:46] and I just spotted a difference between them [20:22:53] I'm surprised that I didn't see it before [20:22:58] ooo nice [20:23:15] I tend to trust the EDD and it has a value squared where another equation has the normal value [20:23:29] in the other source [20:25:53] is this something I can verify in the AS-206RAM listing, one way or the other? [20:26:02] likely yes [20:26:57] I don't know if powered and orbital navigation use the same gravitation routine [20:27:23] but this is in an equation that only affects orbital navigation [20:27:29] in the calculation of "P34" [20:28:04] I see P34 in some comments [20:28:16] ah good [20:28:22] it uses "H" among other things [20:28:39] ok so, P34 is a complicated equation [20:28:42] part of it is [20:28:55] 15 * Something - 3 [20:29:10] and Something is either "some value" or the square of "some value" [20:29:48] hahaha oh boy [20:29:49] hmmm [20:29:54] the "some value" is probably an intermediate variable [20:30:05] it's Y_G divided by R [20:30:09] or Y_U or so [20:30:10] oh I think it might be scaled differently [20:30:44] I'm looking at a 3*Something**2 - 0.6 right before the end of the P34 calculation [20:30:58] which is suspiciously only different from what you wrote by a factor of 5 [20:31:20] H*(AE/R)*(3*(V/R)**2 - .6) [20:31:41] ah yes [20:31:57] (H/5)*(a_e/R)*(15*(Y_G/R)^2-3) [20:32:11] there's the 5 :D [20:32:17] are you sure it's V? [20:32:30] that would be velocity [20:32:34] that's what Ron has transcribed [20:33:02] this is a comment so [20:33:06] oooh [20:33:20] it would be the position south (or north) of the equator [20:33:32] but in any case, I guess that confirms it [20:33:44] yeah, whatever it is, that term should be squared [20:33:51] yeah [20:34:10] I also wanted to compare the gravity vector to my own calculations, I think I'll still do that [20:34:33] thanks :D [20:34:37] sure thing! [20:34:43] I was looking at the vector compare display of the RTCC MFD [20:34:48]