[16:02:18] NASSP Logging has been started by indy91 [16:02:20] hey [16:03:42] interesting to see where all the people were sitting [17:24:40] morning! [17:26:26] hello [17:39:07] hey guys [17:56:48] what's up? [17:57:58] got some issues to fix with the deorbit targeting [18:28:08] it ties into the simulation of CSM and LM burns [18:28:27] the only source for that I have is in a quite outdated form [18:28:42] so I implemented a heavily modified version of it [18:28:50] and I am constantly running into issues with it [18:29:10] I should have have implemented it from scratch in my own design haha [18:31:36] the only thing that works well with it is the standard External DV burn with heads up/down [18:31:41] all other options have problems [18:59:15] You just have to fill out one of those program request forms in the RTCC documents, address it to yourself, and date it in the late 1960s. And there you go, instant historical accuracy:) [18:59:56] I like the idea with a heist on NARA Fort Worth better [19:00:51] and hoping they actually have IBM RTCC documents and hoping they actually have the updated version... [19:08:33] They're still closed indefinitely aparently [19:09:00] Do we have any kind of list of what they might have? [19:10:37] well we do have the scanned first pages of MSC memos, so those they have for sure, as Ron had already had them in his hands [19:11:01] and then there is this: [19:11:03] https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/NARASWoverflow/CorporateIndex.pdf [19:11:18] but this is just a list of documents that MSC had at one point [19:11:22] not necessarily NARA [19:11:26] but there is a chance [19:11:49] and we also have this inventory: https://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/NARA-SW/Rg255-1.pdf [19:13:09] E.209D. CONTRACTOR TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS. [19:13:16] 1961-1972. 78 ft. [19:13:27] Arranged alphabetically by contractor name and there under by control numbers assigned [19:13:29] by the contractor. There is a copy of the Apollo Engineering and Technology Index (AETI) in [19:13:31] box 1 that includes both a Corporate Author Index and a Systems Index [19:13:37] 78 ft is a lot [19:13:42] and they list IBM [19:13:48] soooo... probably? [19:14:13] that they have RTCC Apollo Programming Systems documents [19:14:58] Ron only scanned a very limited amount of E209D title pages, after all he was mostly searching for AGC related documentation [19:18:06] oh wow. Well I'm saving those PDFs in my folder [19:19:15] thewonderidiot, ever requested anything from the contractor documentation? [19:19:34] no, I haven't [19:19:49] I've only ever requested drawings for MIT documents [19:19:52] er [19:19:57] drawings OR MIT documents [19:21:47] I'm tempted to just call them. [19:23:34] likely works better than emails [19:25:25] my email from April was fine, I should just send them the same one again :D [19:26:02] but the problem might just be that nobody is actually there in the archives, right? [19:26:44] so any request to just check something in a box can't be fulfilled anyway [19:26:52] or at least in a quite limited amount still [19:27:09] I'm sure their request backlog is impressive [19:27:41] I have managed to get some fuel cell drawings [19:27:44] so they're still somewhat there [19:27:53] it's definitely worth following up if they never responded [19:28:14] yeah, I will do that then [19:29:33] even if I know that they have it, there is no way I want to pay for multiple 1000 page documents to be scanned by them... so in the end it will fall to Ron or someone to do the scanning [19:31:29] yeah that could get expensive very quickly [19:31:56] I'd do it myself if they'd let me, haha [19:32:23] There was a time when I didn't want to ask Ron every month for a bunch of extra stuff for him to do [19:32:34] ... and then they raised the prices :D [19:33:14] but I don't remember what it was. 25 cents per page or something? [19:36:10] ouch [19:36:24] in an email from Ron 3 years ago he said 80 cents [19:37:31] that was when more than just me started to ask him to scan documents for them at NARA, so he wrote on the mailing list instructions how to do requests directly to NARA :D [19:38:37] in that price range I'm still tempted to get one or two MSC memos, I know those rarely exceed 100 pages [19:39:19] but it's a bit much for documents so large that they split it up in multiple volumes once they reach 1000 pages [19:40:10] n7275, there is a process to become a sort of researcher like Ron, with easier access and everything. But of course, all post COVID... [19:45:20] I had talked to Mike a bit about this, and it sounded like it wasn't really an option unfortunately [19:46:45] It's too bad. I could fly there for like $250. I'd only need to scan 313 pages to make that worth it [19:48:26] But of course I could faaaar more than that in a week :) [19:51:18] yeah, becoming a volunteer like Ron isn't really what we need -- just regular researcher access is fine [19:51:29] the problem is just that we need somebody that can spend hours and hours there lol [19:51:44] it'll be very slow going because you can only use a flatbed scanner, page by page [19:52:08] right [19:52:15] or an overhead scanner like the czur stuff [19:52:36] well I would do it, too, of course, as I am the one who wants all this stuff. Sadly I am usually on the wrong continent... [19:52:53] yeah it would be quite a trip for you to do it [19:54:19] I think NARA actually recommends hiring researchers because it can be cheaper than ordering documents [19:54:20] https://www.archives.gov/research/hire-help/locations.html?facility=fort-worth [19:54:36] ah right, I read that [19:54:46] of course I have no idea what they charge, but it might be worth emailing a few people on that list to see what they say [19:55:19] yeah I'll have a look [19:56:05] well for now I can mostly fix my own terrible bugs in my own semi-terrible implementations of certain RTCC routines [20:00:45] indy91, those RTCC documents you shared with me a while back, where did they come from? [20:00:57] the IBM ones? [20:01:00] yes [20:01:15] three of them (AS-200) came from the archived NTRS [20:01:23] all the others came from UHCL [20:02:07] https://uhcl-ir.tdl.org/bitstream/handle/10657.1/964/jsc-center-mcc-rtcc.pdf [20:03:00] I actually have still one document to request from them, but I am 90% sure it's just MED lists and as it's AS-200 and not AS-500 it tends to be quite outdated [20:04:12] IBM RTCC Apollo Programming [20:04:13] Series, AS-200 Systems Integration, [20:04:14] Mission Systems, Volume 2 [20:04:35] also promising is [20:04:37] Apollo and ASTP Real - Time Program [20:04:38] System Parameters (computer [20:04:39] printout) [20:04:47] ooooooo [20:05:03] What I already got is this "AS-205 (EORP) Real - Time Program [20:05:04] System Parameters" [20:05:06] so for Apollo 7 [20:05:12] and it's quite good [20:05:32] not exactly a complete set of all system parameters there would be, but a nice subset [20:06:10] the worst part of it, in one part it refers to the reader looking in MSC memo 68-FM-23 for reentry parameters [20:06:19] of course that's a memo we don't have... [20:06:47] ah sorry [20:07:00] 68-FM-26 [20:07:05] almost got that right from memory :D [20:09:21] for the system parameters it says [20:09:22] "Oversize - Stored on Shelves" [20:09:27] and [20:09:28] 1968 - 1974 [20:09:46] if I wanted to get started on that I would probably ask for Apollo 8 only [20:09:47] sounds like something printed on fan-fold :) [20:10:26] or maybe just all of it, but no idea how much there is [20:10:59] I would expect a lot of data if it's anywhere close to a relevant amount of system parameters for a mission [20:11:55] the Apollo 7 document actually gives some examples of pages that could be in that format [20:17:18] yeah, that could be (probably is) an absolutely colossal document [20:18:07] you would think so, but a lot of the documents I have gotten from UHCL were very incomplete [20:18:27] like Pho-TR170A from Philco, I had great hopes for that [20:18:42] but it was just changed pages [20:18:50] nothing of the original document [20:19:20] but if it is quite complete it could be very helpful [20:27:01] Even just the changes are something like 300 pages [20:33:16] yep haha [20:33:48] it didn't have any display format sadly that I didn't already know about [20:34:40] Feel free to request the system parameters if you want. It doesn't help me with what I am working on right now and I just got a few mission techniques documents. I try to limit myself to a reuqest of a few documents per month. [20:34:46] I would request it eventually of course [21:02:27] sure [21:19:14] hmm "Starting February 14, 2022, UHCL Archives & Special Collections will be taking appointments for on-site research." [21:21:13] that means if you are in the area you can go in person again [21:21:38] I guess for most of the pandemic even UHCL students had to do what we do, write emails (or call) [21:28:35] It's been quite a while since I took a trip down to Texas. I might ask them about in-person. I think I'd need to plan to look at an appropriate amount of stuff, and that would need to work with the way they're scheduling apointments. [21:29:23] what would you want to look at in person. The (probably oversized) system parameters? [21:30:35] they don't charge anything and so far have scanned anything I requested quite quickly, so unlike NARA I never considered that we might want to go to the JSC History Collection in person [21:32:02] oh haha. I'm going to have a hard time beating that price per page [21:33:19] just have to send them all the data for a document (location etc.) and so far everything has magically and for free turned up as a PDF :) [21:34:10] oh wow. would be nice if everything worked like that [21:34:18] it's that damn government institution that almost sounds like NASA that is the problem here haha [21:43:37] yes, haha [21:51:00] Oh, speaking of travel, it looks like I'm going to Germany for work in early September [21:55:23] oh nice! Where are you going? [21:56:24] Stuttgart [22:00:13] ah nice. Well, then you get to see a city I haven't been to haha [22:01:17] my father lived there as a child, but only for 2 years or so [22:05:18] oh cool. Well I'm looking forward to it. COVID has really slowed down my international travel. [22:11:12] the first thing that comes to my mind that I would do in Stuttgart is probably visit the Mercedes Benz Museum, but as I said, I haven't been there. [22:14:07] ah right, remember when it was easy to visit museums... [22:14:52] I vaguely remember times like that... [22:21:46] night!