[18:10:51] NASSP Logging has been started by thewonderidiot [18:10:53] morning! [18:10:58] Guenter! [19:26:15] hey Mike [19:26:27] busy debugging things, so I hadn't looked here yet :D [19:31:30] hahaha [20:55:52] What up [20:58:27] hey [20:58:34] coming out of standby mode is still broken [20:58:53] despite your fix for it in November. It's not a pending interrupt, there are none [20:59:03] so it must be some other issue [21:00:49] Hmm [21:01:27] .at 13-08 Look at standby bug. Improper resume behavior. [21:01:35] .on 13-08 Look at standby bug. Improper resume behavior. [21:02:18] .on 12-07 test [21:02:23] Guenter! [21:02:31] .help [21:03:07] .in 5 weeks investigate standby resume bug [21:03:11] There we go [21:03:33] I leave for the US this satuday so I don't expect to be able to look into it for a while. [21:04:04] But maybe Mike and I can discuss it when we meet up this sunday :P [21:06:27] lol we certainly could, although I think it might be a silly thing to travel all the way to the US to do :P [21:08:48] I might be able to look into it sooner....... but also I don't want to commit to anything until I get this rope reader board sent out for fab [21:09:06] I want to get this thing done ASAP [21:10:29] Well it's a bit further obviously but flying down to the Cape from MIT for meetings or issues was not uncommon during the program. [21:10:46] But in todays context it would be silly indeed [21:19:56] we went on holiday just to meet a family of friends of ours there [21:20:01] three times [21:20:04] but actually, it was by chance [21:20:18] and 3 different places many hours from home [21:20:32] could have met them at home :D [21:20:39] but what are the chances of that happening haha [21:23:00] night! [22:27:52] Damn. Someone just opened an issue on AndroidAGC. I'm honestly a bit surprised someone managed to build it and is actually using it. [22:28:16] I don't even have it set up to the point where I can built it right now lol [22:28:41] Heh. And his issue is not even a bug. [22:28:56] "I get OPR ERR when I press 8 or 9 what gives" :P [23:29:56] lol 8 and 9 aren't real numbers [16:24:13] hello [16:28:24] quite the bug we have on the forum [16:57:39] yeah it's very strange [17:13:59] morning! [17:24:27] hey [18:03:51] I am very anxiously awaiting this AMS manual haha [18:11:05] I am cautiously optimistic awaiting the AMS manual [18:15:19] hahahaha [20:42:00] Evening [20:42:31] yo [20:43:23] What's up? [20:44:01] 63 more nets to route out of ~1300 on the rope reader board [20:44:04] getting very close [20:45:37] I've been starting to think about disassemblers again [20:45:52] if I want to write a custom one for the AGC, or try to add it as a target for Ghidra or something [20:46:54] ....and also I need to clean my apartment so it's not a disaster when you visit :P [20:49:00] Hehehe my stuff is also more often than not in a state of "organised chaos". Don't worry about it too much. [15:54:55] hey Nik [15:56:13] hey hey [16:03:11] morning! [16:03:36] AMS manual is allegedly supposed to be delivered in the next 2-3 hours [16:13:28] hey, sounds great [16:14:05] what sounds not so great is, I have somehow deleted my file of notes of listening to the Apollo 11 FIDO [16:14:28] lots of good stuff in there. Buuuut, I should have a backup on my laptop. [16:14:40] oh noooo [16:14:49] hopefully your backup is good [16:16:14] I took the file with me on the road together with 10s of hours of more MOCR audio, in case I had too much time [16:16:34] so might be slightly outdated, but I haven't added many notes in the last year [16:17:07] I should maybe enable the Windows Explorer to ask me for confirmation when I delete a file :D [16:19:54] uh oh [16:19:58] only Apollo 13 FIDO on there [16:21:41] eeeeeee [16:21:55] you might be able to recover most of it. there's some good "undelete" tools out there [16:37:59] it's probably been deleted for too long [16:39:50] oh no [17:05:02] time to re-listen to the whole thing? [17:07:58] well good thing that I had never listened to the whole thing yet in the first place :D [18:54:58] facepalms [18:55:04] So the car rental company has confused dutch with deutsch... Doing the online check-in in German wasn't a big deal but understanding the German legalese in their booking conditions is another level. [19:04:12] if it said Waschmaschine anywhere in the conditions then you now own a new device [19:04:35] lol [19:04:40] also oh man oh man the AMS manual is here [19:05:01] and holy crap this thing is extremely technically dense [19:05:16] no table of contents, no exposition, zero paragraphs [19:05:22] every single page is just a schematic [19:05:45] I see, same author as the IBM RTCC documents [19:05:57] and very interestingly, it appears to reproduce spacecraft schematics where actual spacecraft hardware was used [19:06:08] case in point, there are DSKY schematics copied straight from MIT in here [19:06:13] yeah, that is what I imagined [19:06:20] so zero things about the RCS :D [19:06:27] unfortunately yes [19:06:30] in this one [19:06:39] but I now have this guy's contact info so I'm going to see if I can get the rest of them [19:07:08] are they more AMS technical manuals or any chance of software of program flows of the software [19:07:17] or program* [19:07:35] I was hoping this one would have a table of contents that would have an answer to that [19:07:52] the table of contents is its own volume :D [19:07:57] all I know is that this is part of section 8, and I don't know what the other sections are haha [19:08:18] I do have a whole bunch of ECS pages [19:08:27] that might be helpful for CM ECS simulation, maybe [19:08:33] yeah probably [19:09:06] could be quite good if it has schematics that go beyond the ones we have [19:09:15] for some subsytems [19:16:48] hopefully! [19:17:13] well I have my work cut out for me. this thing probably has a couple hundred foldouts [19:17:21] the new scanner is going to pay for itself multiple times over on this one [19:18:33] does it come with a minimum wage worker doing it for you [19:18:55] no unfortunately not [19:19:17] although I would be thrilled to be said worker if any of y'all wanted to pay me minimum wage for buying and scanning this stuff :P [19:19:29] (kidding) [19:20:42] only half kidding, I appreciate it a lot when I mention a document is interesting and suddenly you own it. I haven't given back enough when you have done that. [19:21:43] somehow all this stuff is owned by people in the US instead of Germany :D [19:22:10] :D [19:23:10] remember when you wanted to buy East German core memory, that's where I could have been useful lol [19:23:27] happy to do my part, and the combo of getting to keep a document and have it be actually useful is good enough :D [19:23:41] oh I do have a bunch of East German cores haha [19:23:59] but yes I will definitely keep that in mind if I ever make it back to the AGC replica project [19:24:12] might even be able to resell some of those documents [19:24:20] ....although to be completely honest that has sort of fallen off my project roadmap at this point [19:24:23] oh yeah for sure [19:24:29] I'm always happy with a PDF. just have not press delete it seems. [19:24:38] have to* [19:24:54] lol [19:25:05] you have reminded me that I really really really need to back up stuff on my laptop [19:25:20] there's a bunch of stuff from the restoration that only exists there, still, years later [19:25:37] 9 out of 10 times I check the trash bin before I permanently delete the stuff in there [19:25:59] really got unlucky with the FIDO audio notes [19:26:58] yeah do a backup. For that process I have already taken up all the bad luck on this planet for a few decades. [19:27:08] lol [19:27:13] A few years ago my laptop hard drive was dying [19:27:19] oh yeah that is the ultimate danger [19:27:25] so I used an external hard drive to move stuff over [19:27:30] and somehow in that process, both of them died [19:27:47] I lost some stuff, luckily not everything [19:28:01] ooooof [19:28:47] I unplugged the external drive from the laptop [19:28:53] and that was the last time it ever worked :D [19:29:03] wow that super sucks [19:29:07] made a strange noise once afterwards [19:29:33] I should maybe also back up all my PDFs somewhere. [19:29:52] But nothing super unique is in there. At worst UHCL needs to scan something again [19:30:16] everything from NARA is twice backed up on the Internet [19:30:27] ibiblio and archiv.org [19:30:30] archive* [19:31:15] I also need to make contingency backups of ibiblio and archive.org [19:31:24] too many things to do [19:31:51] also hah -- pages 8-606 and 8-607, "Smoke Generator" [19:32:02] gotta have those realistic effects :D [19:32:08] ah yeah, I read about that in the instructor handbook I think [19:32:42] Turry needs that for Apollo 9, controlled by the livestream chat [19:37:53] hehehe [19:45:07] there is also launch and thruster noises [20:45:53] night! [13:02:43] hallo [13:06:26] hey [13:08:15] I finally started on Apollo 12 last night [13:08:51] nice! [15:24:31] as a result of my new job, I'm now becoming a bit of an expert at removing potting material from electronics [15:42:34] that might get you hired for the next AGC restoration, if there should be one :D [15:55:54] morning! [15:56:01] yes that sounds very interesting :D [16:21:07] I think I'd still be very nervous to touch an AGC [16:22:00] have you had to deal with the rigid polyurethane foam that MIT liked to use? [16:24:34] this stuff is about Shore D40 [16:26:32] and it's solid, not foam [16:27:40] it's like digging through a tire [17:07:36] indy91, is there a list of characters/symbols used by the D/TV displays in any document that you know of? [17:13:41] ahh PHO-TR515 has it [17:18:27] I know it can show greek letters [17:18:53] one of the differences to the RTACF [17:20:16] hmm [17:20:22] now that I think about it [17:20:36] most of these letters would be part of the background slide [17:20:58] maybe the RTACF displays don't use background slides at all and what's why it can't show them? [17:21:15] in some cases that's the only difference between a RTCC and a RTACF display [17:21:19] greek letters [17:21:39] but in any case the RTCC could dynamically display greek letters, too [17:23:47] so I talked to the guy who sold me the AMS manual last night -- it's not a done deal yet but it sounds like I will be able to get the other four volumes of it from him [17:24:19] he says the first volume has a lot of details on the mechanical instruction, the second volume has pictures of all of the circuit boards and talks about those, and then the other two are more schematic-filled ones [17:24:41] and they are all maintenance manuals? [17:24:52] as far as I know this is all the same manual [17:24:57] right [17:24:58] he's sending me pictures sometime today [17:26:55] well it's great manuals if someone wants to rebuild the AMS :D [17:27:30] for me, I can't say I can use anything from it much. The software part would be a lot more helpful with certain things. [17:28:11] Struggling with some of the same issues as NASSP, how they could simulate some systems at 25 frames per second if the timing really needed to be much smaller to simulate it "properly" [17:33:47] analogue "computers"? [17:35:01] that's the thing [17:35:03] not analog [17:35:44] they often used hybrid computers at the time to be able to simulate things with fine timing like RCS [17:36:07] I'm not sure about the MIT digital simulator, that couldn't be run in real-time I think? [17:36:31] but I am pretty sure the AMS is all digital if you don't count the AGC emulator [17:36:44] I found one memo online with the struggles that are caused by that [17:38:07] http://www.ctandi.org/empty-blog/2017/10/14/effect-of-lms-fifty-millisecond-integration-steps-on-simulated-response-of-abort-attitude-control-system-lem-engineering-memorandum [17:40:33] ok even further disclaimer. The AMS uses a lot of actual hardware where possible, hence the large volumes of maintenance manuals :D [17:40:44] but no analog computers I believe [17:44:27] gotcha gotcha [17:44:42] well the actual hardware information is quite useful still haha [17:44:59] indeed [17:45:48] we could use some drawings of what I would call "sub-subcontractor black boxes" [17:46:15] where the Systems Handbook etc. just have a empty box because they didn't get detailed drawings?! [17:46:18] like HGA electronics [17:48:42] yeah for sure [17:49:54] I kind of doubt the AMS had a real HGA electronics box though [17:49:59] wouldn't be much use [17:50:24] without also having a real HGA :D [18:15:00] hehehe [18:15:14] yeah, and despite all of the comms stuff in our lab we don't have a real HGA/electronics box either [21:44:56] night! [12:20:43] good morning [14:16:26] hey Matt [17:11:58] morning! [18:12:42] hey Mike [18:13:09] remind me, what did you want the AMS manuals for mainly? CDU schematics? [18:16:53] general knowledge haha [18:17:53] it's the smoke generator, admit it [18:18:10] alright you got me [18:22:05] it is hard to top restoring an AGC, but restoring a smoke generator might just do it [18:26:47] luckily the AGC was never a smoke generator [18:30:55] this LM PSA we have sure was though [21:12:05] night! [12:05:52] hey Niklas [12:21:07] was looking through HSI-209462 a bit this morning, specifically at all the JCL code. there are a bunch of clues to filenames (DSNAME= ...), and the delog program looks very sophisticated. [12:21:12] cool stuff [12:33:59] yeah definitely. I also really like the list of programs and tables, helps when I want to name stuff in our RTCC [12:44:35] I've been thinking about the best way to store things like telemetry and plotboard data. might be something we need to wait for 64 bit Orbiter. I think some compact binary file to which the scenerio has a path [12:52:20] what does 64bit Orbiter have that 32bit doesn't? [12:52:54] the ability to address more than 4GB of memory [12:53:14] would we really generate that much data? [12:58:11] hmm, my LM telemetry client does something strange [12:58:26] it only processes LGC data when I open it with the VS debugger [12:58:37] opening the debug or release exe files directly doesn't work [12:58:42] the other telemetry data are fine [12:58:52] does that sound like something uninitialized? [13:00:01] oh haha. I thought LGC telemetry wasn't implemented yet [13:00:42] not sure I pushed my latest version from a few months ago [13:00:49] could be uninitialized. and debug mode somehow initializes something to 0 [13:00:50] actually, it could be a really dumb bug [13:01:06] I have files with the LGC downlink format [13:01:13] it could be a path problem [13:01:18] that it doesn't find those [13:01:31] probably looking in the same folder as the exe normally [13:01:37] but not with the debugger maybe [13:02:40] lol, yeah that is it [13:08:07] re: your question about memory. I think at most (physical limitations of the 2314 DASF, 2x DSEs, plus plotboards, would be around 400MB. but Orbiter already uses 2.9GB and if we do any report/stripchart/tape generation that could eat up the rest fairly quick [13:08:50] hmm right [13:09:02] we need to write data to tape :D [13:10:30] so how do I solve the folder path problem... [13:12:37] is it an issue of the working directory changing between debug/release [13:13:33] i had that issue when I was testing my console-based Pines Gravity tester program [13:14:23] the VS debugger would make the CWD the directory of the debugger rather than the directory of the exe [13:14:42] you could print the directory to a text box [13:15:17] yeah it's VS debugger where it worked, debug/release not [13:16:13] but I have an idea what could work [13:23:10] hmm, now it's causing CTDs [13:27:09] and now not :D [13:27:14] didn't really change anything [13:27:21] the exe file is in a Release folder [13:27:38] next to the Release folder is a LMTelemetryClient2 folder with the downlink formats [13:27:39] sprintf_s(listname, "../LMTelemetryClient2/LGCDownlinkFormat%d.txt", list + 1); [13:27:39] myfile.open(listname); [13:27:41] this works [13:27:54] I think I'll push a version of it for testing [13:30:22] https://github.com/indy91/LMTelemetryClient2/tree/main/Release [13:30:40] test with Apollo 11 [13:30:58] coast/align and maneuver downlink formats are implemented [13:31:01] so P00, P40 etc. [13:32:19] LGC and uplink pages are working [13:32:26] and you can already uplink DSKY inputs [13:44:12] are CMC downlink/uplink formats the same for all software versions or do they change too? [13:46:15] they change [13:46:25] not a lot, but enough haha [02:08:10] .tell indy91 I tested out your updated telemetry client and it works. [15:56:06] hey [15:58:24] hey Matt [15:58:53] great. It's a bit buggy still, occasionally the LGC telemetry somehow causes a CTD [15:59:10] at least in Sundance [15:59:18] could depend on the active downlink list [16:21:00] morning! [16:21:24] that doesn't surprise me too much, sundance's lists are a bit weird [16:22:36] the CTD would probably come from some wrong formatting [16:23:01] the telemetry client does scaling and such, maybe it overflows the text box or so :D [16:25:22] now I remember why I didn't continue with the other downlink formats. It's a lot of new erasables that aren't in the other lists. I kind of ran out of space to display them all on one page. [16:50:21] I need about 5 more screens so I can have all the telemetry client windows open at once [20:57:49] night! [15:15:30] hey [16:31:40] morning! [16:32:44] what's up? [16:33:34] not a whole lot [16:33:55] still have 57 traces to route on the rope reader board, but I made some progress (I think?) on sorting those out last night [16:34:06] started routing both ends and just need to figure out how they all meet in the middle lol [16:35:06] sounds like some work that you can divide in many pieces and do whenever [16:35:54] which can be good for motivation to even start working on it in the evening :D [16:36:56] hahaha [16:37:09] well the tough thing is, I'm getting very constrained in where I can place my vias [16:37:31] so I think these 57 traces are either all going to come together at once, or won't and I have to start over with them [16:37:37] so it's been a bit of a tough problem to start cracking [16:38:00] not like I can open it up and route 10 and commit the work, because they might have to be ripped up if they end up blocking the others :) [16:38:30] ah so, nearly the opposite of what I concluded from your earlier words haha [16:38:36] lol pretty much [16:39:12] I'm looking at Sundance compatible RTCC calculations. [16:39:24] stupid outdated rendezvous programs [16:39:45] it's a bit of a new problem caused by something entirely unrelated, the CSM having a shifting center of gravity [16:40:11] the SPS-5 maneuver, happening the day before rendezvous, was supposed to circularize the orbit [16:40:15] oh that's a weird cause [16:40:27] but there were large residuals due a slow reacting DAP [16:40:48] happened on the actual mission and now also in NASSP. [16:41:06] So Turry has a not super circular orbit for rendezvous, like the actual mission [16:41:41] And that's where Sundance and the RTCC now diverge a bit, more than before [16:42:15] To the point that the ground calculated CDH maneuver would be quite bad to use, because its time of ignition is quite off [16:43:09] it seems like they actually had a AGC compatible mode in the RTCC for this [16:43:30] when it comes to calculating the CDH TIG from the post CSI orbit [16:43:57] one option to place CDH at the next apsis, but basically using an integrated trajectory [16:44:17] but then this: "Number of apsis since CSI (Keplerian)" [16:45:16] I guess what you could do with that mode is: use AGC state vectors for RTCC rendezvous calculations. Use same inputs as the AGC. And as a result you can replicate the same CDH time that the AGC would calculate. [16:45:41] might be something they had added specifically for Apollo 9 [16:49:30] hmmmmm weird [16:49:33] the AGC is not iterating on integrated trajectories for rendezvous [16:49:51] it does do that in P37 for the onboard return to Earth [16:50:04] but the result is that calculation can take foreeeever [16:57:41] need Block 3 AGC with hardware interpreter acceleration :D [16:59:17] oh was that a proposed feature or did you just make that up? :D [16:59:47] it sounds useful in any case haha [17:06:29] that's what Hugh Blair-Smith wanted to do with Block 3 [17:06:50] so it wasn't ever official, but it's as close to official as you can get while being unofficial lol [17:10:58] Mike, sounds like you and James need to write a block 3 emulator :) [17:11:15] can you emulate something that never existed? :D [17:11:43] Hugh was actually working with somebody to implement a Block 3 emulator a few years back [17:11:45] I don't know how far they got [17:11:55] but no, that is not a project for me lol [15:42:17] hey [15:56:56] hey Matt [16:12:29] you might not recognize me from my username, but it's me, indy91 [17:05:54] haha [17:06:09] connection issues today? [17:12:55] seems like it, not sure why [17:25:49] that one was actually a short power outage. Maybe the heat, something must be struggling. We are nearly setting temperature records yesterday and today. [17:49:55] that's never good [16:37:03] hey [16:39:04] do we have any good scans of telemetry strip-charts? [16:41:37] hey Matt [16:41:38] uhhh [16:47:21] https://honeysucklecreek.net/msfn_missions/Apollo_10_mission/a10_biomed.html [16:47:25] like this? [16:50:04] yes! [17:28:36] I know I've seen similar charts for Apollo 13 fuel cell voltages and tank pressures during the incident [17:33:05] yeah the mission operations report has something like that [17:33:24] But that looks more hand drawn, with telemetry data [17:33:38] Apollo in Real Time also uses the tank pressure chart there [17:57:56] I want to make something in python/matplotlib to do strip charts [18:02:09] and using actual telemetry, that would be nice [20:29:13] I just pinged UHCL again about that parameter printout document [20:37:13] the system parameters? [20:38:00] ha yeah, that would still be good to have, if it exists :D [20:45:28] I guess the person that was looking for it left, so hopefully there are still places left the search [20:53:28] surely it has to hit a nerve of a librarian [20:53:32] if you point to them out that they have a document listed, but somehow it can't be found [20:56:47] night! [04:07:00] Good evening! [06:30:42] hey Thymo [19:48:05] hey Nik [19:50:45] hey [20:45:59] @Thymo, is there no way on Github to add the person who opened an issue as a reviewer for the pull request with the fix for it? [20:56:14] don't they need to be a member of orbiternassp? [20:57:40] I guess so [20:57:56] which limits the number of readily available reviewers [21:16:22] I need to jump on reviews a bit more quickly [21:39:12] we just need to hire some more people :D [21:43:10] we should try to recruit some more regulars [21:50:16] I would be glad to wear fewer hats [21:50:20] good night! [14:27:39] good morning [14:33:54] doing some reading on telemetry processing today [14:37:00] an alternate universe where DEC computers and TCP were used by NASCOM would make this much easier to understand [14:38:03] also, apparently RS-232 is way older than I thought it was [14:41:26] according to my research, the CCATS 494s do the final PCM decomunication on the data they receieve from the GSFC data lines [14:42:57] then they send a buffer into the RTCC, consisting of 8 bit words, once per second. [14:43:56] RTCC does all the scaling and limit sensing, but doesn't do anything with frame sync, etc. [15:08:28] yeah, we have the scaling and limit sensing functions documented in the IBM RTCC documents [15:21:09] so those would sit between the CCATS buffer and the Intermediate Data Array [15:23:34] so the intermediate data array is where e.g. MOCR displays would get their data or is there more processing? [15:24:20] it would have double precision floating point data then I guess [15:24:26] or single? [15:24:34] I guess it depends... [15:28:36] morning! [15:40:39] single [15:40:46] I think [15:41:23] hey Mike [15:42:38] I think each value in the array uses a single 32 bit word [15:43:57] trying to find my bookmark... [15:50:35] and yes. the Intermediate Data Array is where the plot boards, MOCR displays, and telemetry logger read data from [17:10:35] I'm not sure I ever want to have full telemetry processing in the RTCC MFD [17:11:00] maybe there could be some standalone RTCC application, with integrated telemetry client [17:11:15] kind of starting our RTCC from scratch haha [17:11:28] just would need some system to talk to Orbiter [17:15:53] starting over has the advantage that I can use the right scaling and coordinate systems from the beginning :D [17:24:46] it would be nice to have the option of running either the RTCC in Orbiter, or as a separate application [17:24:58] options add complexity though [17:26:45] iirc Thymo was working on some ideas for a networking API [14:51:36] hey Nik [14:56:18] good afternoon [15:02:15] got a very simple PR up. Just a slight change in how a LM telemetry signal is generated. [15:02:42] so that the APS also shows up as armed if it got armed from the ground, with the telemetry client [15:03:46]